应该明令禁止生鲜乳销售，还是让消费者自己决定要不要喝生奶？
巴氏杀菌的均质牛奶是毒药。来自健康牧场、不使用抗生素饲养的奶牛的生鲜牛奶才是健康食品！"！
如果你被政府的宣传洗脑，认为生牛奶不健康，那就不要买，但为什么要阻止那些希望健康和行使选择自由的人呢？
Pasteurised homogenised milk is poison. Raw milk from healthy pasture grazing cows raised without antibiotics is health food!!
If you are brainwashed to be risk adverse by govt propaganda don't buy raw milk but why stop those who want to be healthy and exercise their freedom of choice?
生牛奶 _ 每个人出生时都有......选择。
Raw milk _ Each human is born with ..choices..
这又是一种典型的瑞士病症！但是，一个世纪前瑞士人的主食是生牛奶，饮用生牛奶会有什么危险呢？不仅是瑞士人，所有山区和低地居民都是如此。
Un altra delle paturnie tipicamente elvetiche! Ma che pericolo ci sarà mai nel consumo di latte crudo, alimento basilare degli Svizzeri fino a un secolo fa? E non solo degli svizzeri, ma di tutti i popoli di montagna , ma anche di pianura.
我从自动售货机上买了牛奶，却不知道应该加热。我强烈怀疑大多数人也不知道这一点。我们大多数人都不是农民。即使你是农民，你也不知道别人的农场里发生了什么。如果你向公众销售产品，你就有责任确保产品的安全，原因很简单：公众不可能走进你的农场、工厂或其他地方去看发生了什么，即使他们能这样做，他们也不知道要看什么，因为我们并不都是医生、工程师等。因此，说人们可以自己评估风险是完全愚蠢的。人们所掌握的信息简直为零，即使他们掌握了所有数据，也不知道该如何处理。每升 5 个菌落是不是太多了？只有不到 0.01% 的人知道如何处理这样的数据。正是在这种情况下，政府的监管对生产商（给潜在客户一个实际的充分理由，让他们对产品充满信心，尽管他们并不是产品检测方面的专家）和消费者（保护他们免受不安全产品的伤害）都有好处。
I bought milk from a vending machine and had no idea that I am supposed to heat it. I strongly suspect most people also don't know that. Most of us are not farmers. Even if you are a farmer, you don't know what is going on inside someone else's farm. If you are selling a product to the public, it is on YOU to ensure it is safe for a very simple reason: the public cannot come into your farm, factory or whatever to see what is going on, and even if they could do that, they would not know what to look for, because we are not all doctors, engineers, etc. Therefore, it is completely silly to say that people can evaluate the risks for themselves. People literally have zero information to go on, and even if they had all the data, they would not know what to do with it. Is 5 bactria per liter too much? Less than 0.01% of people know what to do with data like that. This is exactly the type of situation where government regulation is a benefit to both the producer (by giving potential customers an actual good reason reason to be confident in the product, despite not being an expert in testing of that product) and consumer (who is protected against unsafe products).
加热牛奶的说明标签是否不够醒目？您认为自动售货机上是否也应该有提及饮用生牛奶风险的警告？
Was the instruction label to heat the milk not visible enough? Do you think the vending machine should also have a warning mentioning the risks of drinking the raw milk?
产品安全"！这是我们这个时代的新痴迷，似乎每个人都在密谋用一切东西毒害我们：饮料、水果和蔬菜、糖果、面包和其他任何东西。巧克力会安全吗？如果我们继续这样下去，我们会让心理学家和精神病学家感到高兴，他们将不得不说服我们无论如何都要养活自己，也许还要借助（安全的？
"Prodotto sicuro" ! È la nuova ossessione dei tempi nostri, come se là fuori tramassero tutti quanti di avvelenarci con ogni cosa: bevande, frutta e verdura, dolci, pane e quant'altro. E il cioccolato sarà sicuro, oppure manipolato pure lui? Andando avanti di questo passo, faremo la gioia di psicologi e psichiatri che dovranno convincerci ad alimentarci comunque magari con l'ausilio di tranquillanti (sicuri?)
至于烟草，也许是骷髅头和交叉的胫骨，无可奉告......
come per il tabacco? magari con teschio e tibie incrociate ? no comment...
真是个问题。 我从两岁（57 岁）起就开始喝生牛乳。没有加热的生牛奶。 几个世纪以来，人类就是这样生存下来的，而那时的卫生条件还没有达到今天的水平。在瑞士，我可以直接从农场购买生牛奶，为当地经济做出贡献。
或者说，越来越多的卫生要求会比我们吃的脏东西更有可能要了我们的命。
在爱尔兰，用生奶生产的奶酪上有一个大大的红色警告，但在加工食品上却没有，这些食品上有一长串的添加剂、防腐剂、糖或人工甜味剂、增味剂等。
天然的就是危险的，人工的就是健康的，我们究竟走了多远。
What a question. I've been drinking raw cow milk since I was two (57years). Raw and not heated. For centuries humans did it and survived and in those days the hygiene wasn't on the level of today. In Switzerland I can buy my raw milk directly from the farm and help so the local economy.
Or urge for more and more hygiene will kill us more likely than the dirt we eat.
In Ireland there's a big red warning on cheese produced from raw milk but none on processed food with long lists of additives, preservatives, sugars or artificial sweeteners, flavor enhancers etc.
How far have we come that natural is dangerous and artificial is healthy.
是的，几个世纪以来，生活比现在残酷得多。在人类生存的大部分时间里，因某种不幸的疾病而英年早逝是非常正常的。而如今，老死是一种相当普遍的特权。如果我们一直以同样的方式行事，我们的健康状况肯定不会有如此大的改善。
尤其是路易-巴斯德，他无疑拯救了数百万甚至数十亿人的生命。
虽然你可以告诉我们你喝牛奶的习惯，但我们必须考虑到，死于食物中毒的人没有机会告诉我们他们的警世轶事。
Yes, and for centuries, life was much harsher than it is now. For most of human existence, dying young from some miserable disease was very normal. Whereas, nowadays, dying of old age is a fairly common privilege. If we had kept doing things the same way, we definitely would not be enjoying such radical improvements in health.
In particular, Louis Pasteur has no doubt save millions if not billions of lives.
Although you are around to tell us about you milk drinking habits, we have to consider that who died of food poisoning have no chance to tell us their cautionary antecdotes.
荒谬的反对意见：但我们又想走多远？我们所有人都要靠千方百计的预防措施和昂贵的药方活到百岁吗？
我们还知道，如今我们并不是要增加实际寿命，而是要延长漫长的晚年，也许是作为痴呆者，住进越来越拥挤的老人院。这些也会 "安全 "吗？ 人总是要死的。
Ridicola obiezione: ma poi fin dove vogliamo arrivare ? Tutti quanti campare centenari con mille precauzioni e costosi rimedi?
Si sa pure che oggi non si aumenta tanto la vera vita, ma si prolunga piuttosto la lunga vecchiaia, magari da dementi e in case per anziani sempre più affollate. Saranno poi "sicure" anche queste? Morire si dovrà pur sempre.
哦，古老的瑞士也有烦恼。世界上其他国家的人只需担心牛奶是否新鲜就够了。
Oho, the worries good old Switzerland has. The rest of the world would be happy to worry about fresh or not so fresh milk.
干得好
苏黎世高地有许多生产新鲜食品的农户，鲜牛奶就是其中之一。未经处理的鲜牛奶直接存放在农田里，绝对美味可口、奶香浓郁，但如果未成年人（包括婴儿和儿童）饮用鲜牛奶（或将鲜牛奶保存较长时间），则需要经过巴氏 UHT 消毒。
Zürcher Oberland has many farmers with fresh foods produce and one of which; is fresh cows' milk. The direct tank in farmlands where fresh milk untreated is absolutely delicious and creamy but for consumption of milk by minors incl. Infants & Children (or keeping fresh milk for longer periods of time) it needs to be pasteurised UHT
为什么会有人给孩子喝 UHT 牛奶？这种牛奶是死的。那还不如给他们喝水呢。
婴幼儿和成人一样可以喝生牛奶。我两岁时就喝过。或者说，瑞士牛奶太他妈卫生了，即使是生牛奶，在冰箱里也能保存一个多星期。
Why would anybody give their children UHT milk? This milk is dead. Then you can as well give them water to drink.
Infants and children can drink raw milk as good as adults. I did it sonce I was two. Or Swiss milk is so damn hygienic, even raw milk keeps for more than a week in the fridge.
有必要将其巴氏杀菌为超高温灭菌吗？ 荒谬
necessario pastorizzarlo a UHT? Ridicolo
如果把公众当傻子，事无巨细地实施监管，我们就会面临社会愚昧化和限制自由的风险。当然，还必须有预算来维护和执行所有这些法律等。
此外，显示中毒事件高发的事实数字又在哪里呢？ 我和家人喝了几年生牛奶，从未出现过问题。 顺便说一句，这些牛奶绝对令人惊叹！
If the public is treated as though they are stupid, by implementing regulation upon regulation on everything, we risk dumbing down society AND restricting freedoms. And then of course, there has to be a budget to maintain and enforce all these laws etc.
Besides, where are the factual numbers showing high cases of poisoning etc. My family and I drank raw milk for a few years and never had an issue. The milk, by the way was absolutely amazing!
对你有好处！ 如果生牛奶对你有用，那就太好了！
但这并不意味着它对每个人都有效，如果出现致命的过敏反应，这个项目就会被关闭。 虽然不幸，但几乎总是真实的结果。
祝你有美好的一天！
Good for you! If the raw milk works for you, then great!
It does not mean it works for everyone and if there are some fatal allergy reaction, this will be shut down. Unfortunate but almost always true outcome.
Have a great day!
也许只有已经对奶制品过敏的人才会对奶制品过敏，而这些人可能只占总人口的 0.01%：他们已经知道并避免食用奶制品！
fatali ?? magari solo per soggetti già allergici contro i latticini, che sono forse lo 0.01 della popolazione: questi già lo sanno e li evitano!
在这个时代，几乎每个人都知道自己所做事情的好处和后果。我认为，应该让人们按照自己的决定和喜好行事。
Almost everyone in this era knows the benefits and consequences of doing what they do. I think people should should be left to go to their decisions and preferences.
如果香烟可以卖，我对生牛奶也没意见。只要人们知道风险......生牛奶的潜在风险可以降到最低，而不是像香烟那样
If cigarettes are sold, I’m fine with raw milk. As long as people know the risks… and the potential risks of raw milk can be minimized, not like cigarettes
应该允许人们购买自己想要的东西。 他们必须了解风险，然后承担风险。 医疗保险公司可以将他们排除在承保范围之外。 这样，我们的社会中就可以少一些这样的人，对所有人都有好处。
People should be allowed to buy what they want. They have to know the risks and then take the risks. Health Insurance companies can exclude them from the coverage. WE can then have lesser amount of such people in our society and it could be beneficial to all.
不同意......有一场关于医疗保险公司不得排除的辩论。 这是一个重要的伦理问题，影响深远。在美国，人们如果患有乳腺癌等疾病，保险公司就会拒绝为其投保。 这是不可接受的。
disagree... there is a whole debate about health insurance companies NOT being allowed to exclude. This is an important ethical point with deep ramifications. In the USA, people can be refused insurance cover if they had e.g. breast cancer and so on. This is not acceptable.
你好，感谢你分享自己的想法。我们谈论的不是癌症，癌症通常无法通过健康生活或健康饮食来预防。它们只是发生了而已。
我很乐意进一步讨论，但前提是要有意义。
美国是一个不同的社会，在医疗保险方面也有不同的观念。不要把他们带进来。
Hallo, thank you for sharing your thoughts. We are not talking about cancer, which is usually not preventable by healthy living or healthy eating. They just occur.
I am happy to discuss further but only if it makes sense.
USA is a different society and a different mindset when it comes to health insurance. Don't bring them in.
在印度，人们担心鲍里斯分枝杆菌会导致肺结核。许多人从农田和集体购买生牛奶，但总是煮沸后再饮用。我反对直接饮用生牛奶。
In India the fear is of mycobacterium Boris causing tuberculosis. Raw milk is purchased by many from farmland and collectives but always boiled before consumption. I am against raw milk being drunk outright.
那就别抽。我反对吸烟，所以我不抽，但让其他人自己决定吧。
另外：瑞士绝对不是印度！
Well, then don't do it. I'm against smoking, so I don't do it but let the others decide for themselves.
Plus: Switzerland is definitely not India!
太棒了：不再有健康恐慌轰炸了！
bravo: bando al bombardamento salutistico allarmista!
在法国，我见过微滤牛奶。用细菌过滤器过滤牛奶，既能消除感染风险，又不会破坏牛奶的风味或蛋白质。但不清楚这对病毒是否足够。
In France I have seen microfiltred milk available. Passing the milk through a bacterial filter removes the risk of infection while not damaging the flavour or proteins. Unclear if this would be sufficient for viruses though.
说得好。是的，法国有微滤牛奶出售。您会喝吗？
Good point. Yes, microfiltered milk is sold in France. Would you drink it?
我并不指望瑞士的奶农能够轻易地对牛奶进行微过滤（技术、成本、时间与无效益的对比），如果这成为继续销售的条件，那么大多数奶农将不再向自动售货机供货，未经巴氏杀菌的牛奶的销售量将迅速下降。
I would not expect Swiss farmers to be easily able to microfilter their milk. (technology, cost, time vs no benefit), if this were to be a condition for continued sales then most farmers would no longer supply vending machines and the sale of unpasteurised milk would rapidly decline.
加入对话