Have you faced difficulties working abroad because of lack of recognition of your Swiss vocational diplomas?
Switzerland is looking into whether to have a Bachelor Professional and Master Professional as a higher vocational qualification to ease recognition abroad. What are your views?
Please implement it in full. The HF should be equated to a Bachelor's or Master's degree to allow opportunities in the international market.
Bitte setzen Sie es vollständig um. Die HF sollte dem Bachelor oder Master gleichgestellt werden, um Chancen auf dem internationalen Markt zu ermöglichen.
When I arrived in Australia, the certificates that the AUS consulate had translated were not accepted, as they were "only" translations. So I had to submit the original certificates to a "trade commission". This commission did not know the vocational school Rueti, so I was "demoted" from (translated) Precision Engineer to Firstclass Fitter & Machichist. Soon I realized that I had to work with really under-educated people. After some time I got to know some people who had the same experience. They were downgraded by the professional for whom they had gotten the visa.
Als ich in Australien ankam, wurden die Zeugnisse, die das AUS-Konsulat uebersetzt hatten, nicht akzeptiert, da das "nur" Uebersetzungen waren. Musste also die original Zeugnisse an eine "Gewerbekommission" einreichen. Diese kannte aber die Berufsschule Rueti nicht, also wurde ich vom (uebersetzten) Precisioningeneur zum Firstclass Fitter & Machichist "degradiert. Bald merkte ich, dass ich da mit echt minder-ausgebildeten Leuten zusammenarbeiten musste. Nach einiger Zeit lernte ich einige Leute kennen, denen es genauso ergengen war. Wurden von der Fachperson, fuer das sie das Visa bekommen hatten, runtergestuft.
Yes! My Swiss Federal "Lehrbrief" is totally worthless in the US!
I currently work as a handyman / technician in a small but international leisure franchise. The majority owner is an American.
My background so far is as an electrician and I am currently working on my HF diploma as a systems engineer (not in IT).
Since the franchisor (he accompanied the construction of our plant) could not do much with the Swiss, as well as the German apprenticeship system for craftsmen and our degrees, his approach was a pretty simple one.
He had a bachelor's degree in engineering in no idea what field, which he had obtained 30 years ago. He never worked in the field himself, as his major was in strategic consulting.
Since we were "just" tradesmen, he approached it as tradesmen are handled in the US. That is, we were told which beam where, with which screw must be screwed together and do what I say, because he studies and we do not.
I, as an electrician / budding technician, was given graphical representations of the sensors / circuit blocks on which was color coded which wire I should connect where. Requests for schematics that would be easier and faster to read and comments about incorrect color codes that deviated from all international standards were dismissed.
Also comments from my colleagues about the construction of the wooden structures and the use of certain mechanical components that were oversized. Required load capacities of 200-300kg were inflated by a factor of 10 to 2-3 tons.
All comments were dismissed with the fact that he studied and we did not. Therefore, there was not a hint of doubt that we were wrong and he was right.
The bottom line is that the concept of a skilled craftsman is completely foreign to him and his other American business partners. A craftsman, as well as technician, is something that in his (the American) understanding is not to be equated with anything that would come close to being able to hammer a nail in the right place without the instruction of a studied and to construct something that does not collapse at the first blast of air or in my case as an electrician, does not dissolve with a bang in smoke.
As far as what I have heard and think I know about the American or even other highly-academic educational systems. Then a craftsman, and pretty much most other apprenticeship graduates in Switzerland and Germany, is often at a similar, if not higher, level of education in terms of knowledge than Bachelor's graduates in many other countries.
Therefore, either an actual alignment of the level and knowledge of a Bachelor, Master, PhD in the international environment would be appropriate, so that e.g. actually ALL engineers worldwide have the "same" level of knowledge.
But since this is unlikely to happen, an adaptation of the Swiss education system with "fake" Bachelor and Master degrees according to the international level and their skill level would probably be quite appropriate and easier to implement.
Ich arbeite zurzeit als Handwerker / Techniker in einem kleinen, aber internationalen Freizeit-Franchise. Der Mehrheitseigner ist ein Amerikaner.
Mein bisheriger Werdegang ist der eines Elektroinstallateurs und bin zurzeit an meinem HF Diplom als Systemtechniker (nicht im IT Bereich).
Da der Franchisegeber (er begleitete den Aufbau unserer Anlage) nicht viel mit dem schweizerischen, als auch dem deutschen Lehrsystem für Handwerker und unseren Abschlüssen anfangen konnte war seine Herangehensweise eine ziemlich simple.
Er hatte ein Bachelor-Diplom als Ingenieur in keiner Ahnung welcher Fachrichtung, welches er vor 30 Jahren erworben hatte. Selbst hat er nie auf dem Bereich gearbeitet, da sein Major im Bereich der strategischen Beratung lag.
Da wir ja "nur" Handwerker waren, ging er das an, wie es in den USA mit Handwerkern gehandhabt wird. Das heisst uns wurde mitgeteilt, welcher Balken wohin, mit welcher Schraube zusammengeschraubt werden muss und mach was ich sage, weil er studiert und wir nicht.
Ich als Elektriker / angehender Techniker erhielt graphische Darstellungen der Sensoren / Schaltblöcke auf denen farblich markiert war welchen Draht ich wo aufschalten sollte. Anfragen nach Schemas, die einfacher und schneller zu lesen wären und Kommentare zu falschen Farbcodes die von allen internationalen Standards abweichen wurden abgetan.
Auch Bemerkungen meiner Kollegen über den Aufbau der Holzkonstruktionen und Einsatz gewisser mechanischer Bauteile die überdimensioniert wurden. Benötigte Belastbarkeiten von 200-300kg wurden um den Faktor 10 aufgeblasen auf 2-3 Tonnen.
Sämtliche Kommentare wurden damit abgetan, dass er studiert hat und wir nicht. Daher bestand nicht der Hauch eines Zweifels, dass wir falsch liegen und er im Recht ist.
Unter dem Strich ist ihm und seinen anderen amerikanischen Geschäftspartnern, das Konzept eines gelernten Handwerkers vollkommen Fremd. Ein Handwerker, wie auch Techniker, ist etwas, was in seinem (dem amerikanischen) Verständnis nicht mit irgendetwas gleichzusetzen ist, was annähernd dazu in der Lage wäre ohne Anweisung eines studierten einen Nagel an der richtigen Stelle einzuschlagen und etwas zu konstruieren, dass nicht beim ersten Luftstoss zusammenbricht oder in meinem Fall als Elektriker, sich nicht mit einem Knall in Rauch in Wohlgefallen auflöst.
Sofern das, was ich über die amerikanische oder auch andere hoch-akademisierte Bildungssysteme gehört habe und zu wissen glaube. Dann ist ein Handwerker und auch so ziemlich die meisten anderen Lehrabgänger in der Schweiz und Deutschland, vom Wissenstand her oft auf einem ähnlichen, wenn nicht sogar höheren Bildungsstand als Bachelor-Absolventen in vielen anderen Ländern.
Von daher wäre entweder eine tatsächliche Angleichung des Niveaus und Wissensstandes eines Bachelor, Master, PhD im internationalen Umfeld angemessen, so dass z.B. tatsächlich ALLE Ingenieure weltweit den "gleichen" Wissensstand haben.
Da dies aber wohl kaum geschehen wird, wäre eine Anpassung des Schweizer Bildungssystems mit "falschen" Bachelor und Mastertiteln entsprechend dem internationalen Niveau und ihrem Fähigkeitslevel wohl durchaus angemessen und einfacher umzusetzen.
The solution lies in creating a fertile environment to support free enterprises and ideas. There are great energies and talents that can benefit Switzerland as a country and benefit its owners if there is support and encouragement. This is not to ignore the absence of mechanisms that help this, but it is an invitation to search for those mechanisms. The more the rate of encouragement for free enterprises and Facilitate it whenever it is a servant of Switzerland, and it can facilitate self-employment and open its doors to individuals through: _ Encouraging cooperation between individuals and communities and building an atmosphere of dating and trust that enables communities to support their members financially to carry out their projects. Holding forums and dialogues on free projects...
الحل يكمن في إيجاد بيئة خصبة لدعم المشاريع الحرة والأفكار هناك طاقات كبيرة ومواهب بإمكانها أن تفيد سويسرا كدولة وتفيد أصحابها لو وجدت دعما وتشجيعا ليس الأمر هنا تجاهل لغياب ٱليات تساعد على ذلك بل هو دعوة للبحث عن تلك الٱليات فكلما ازدادت نسبة تشجيع المشاريع الحرة و تسهيلها كلما كان ذلك خادما لسويسرا ورافعا من شأنها و يمكن تسهيل العمل الحر وفتح أبوابه أمام الأفراد من خلال :_ تشجيع التعاون بين الأفراد والجاليات وبناء جو من التعارف والثقة يمكن الجاليات من دعم أفرادها ماليا للقيام بمشاريعهم_ تخفيض الإيجار والضرائب من طرف الحكومة_ إقامة ملتقيات وحوارات حول المشاريع الحرة..........
Yes, the Swiss system of vocational school does not exist in this form in other countries. The only thing left to do is to convince yourself through practice, if you are given this chance. Depending on your career choice, this can be more or less difficult.
Ja. Das Schweizer System der Berufsschule gibt es so in anderen Ländern nicht. Da bleibt bloss das Überzeugen durch Praxis, sofern einem diese Chance gewährt wird. Je nach Berufswahl ist dies schwieriger oder einfacher.
No, but I have to say that I have a bachelor's degree and it was therefore easy. Theoretically, I would not have had any problems with my HF diploma, but I did not find out because it was not necessary to have it recognized.
Nein, muss dazu aber sagen dass ich einen Bachelor habe und es darum einfach war. Theoretisch hätte ich mit meinen HF Diplom auch keine Problemen haben müssen, dass habe ich aber nicht erfahren weil es nicht nötig wär um es anerkennen zu lassen.
Wouldn't it be nice to start by having our diplomas recognized in Switzerland? I have a federal diploma in computer science and it is not recognized by the State of Vaud. All the other cantons recognize it, but not the canton of Vaud.
Because of this I have to go to work in Geneva, 2 hours of travel and a ridiculous tax deduction in Vaud. A lump sum of CHF 3000 to cover 170km of travel per day. What a joke! It doesn't even cover the 2nd class GA that would make me travel 3 hours. In short I have to pay to go to work.
Ne serait-il pas déjà bien de commencer par faire reconnaitre nos diplômes en Suisse? J'ai un diplôme fédéral en informatique et ce dernier n'est pas reconnu par l'Etat de Vaud. Tous les autres cantons le reconnaissent, mais pas le canton de Vaud.
A cause de ça je dois aller travailler à Genève, 2h de déplacement et une déduction aux impôts vaudois ridicule. Forfait CHF 3000.-, pour couvrir 170km de déplacement par jour. Quelle blague ! Ca ne me couvre même pas l'AG 2ème classe qui me ferait des déplacement de 3h. En somme je dois payer pour aller travailler.
All the countries I worked in had no recognition of Swiss diplomas and probably that hasn't changed; they all required us to know their local ways.
Except when I was teaching French to adults.
Tous les pays où j'ai travaillé n'avaient aucune reconnaissance des diplômes Suisses et probablement que ça n'a pas changé; ils demandaient tous que nous connaissions leur façons de faire locales.
Sauf quand j'enseignais le français aux adultes.
Well Switzerland unis does very little to equally recognize other unies, if I have an American bachelor diploma I can't apply to masters here I have to redo my bachelor and no classes will be counted in, I have to start from pure 0.
Well Switzerland unis does very little to equally recognise other unies, if I have an American bachelor diploma I can't apply to masters here I have to redo my bachelor and no classes will be counted in, I have to start from pure 0.
I remember how difficult it was to get my CFC in physics recognized by France in 1977. (diploma of 1972). It was still called laboratory employee type C, which could lead to confusion.
During my first interview with the ANPE, I was asked if I washed the dishes, while I was working with PhD students in different institutes and research laboratories in Switzerland.
Finally, the national education authority offered me (without a diploma) an equivalence of level 4, which is a much lower French level after examining my file.
Fortunately, after a year of refresher maths at the catho of Anger, I was able to integrate a BTS chemistry thereafter.
The most paradoxical thing was that the Algerian bac was recognized, while the level was hopelessly low, at least, my partner in the first year of BTS, who could not solve an equation of the second degree and panicked during the physics TP with the red and black cables (+ and-) ... but he did not pass in the second year ...
Je me souviens de la difficulté pour faire reconnaitre par la France mon CFC de laborant en physique en 1977. ( diplôme de 1972). Celui -ci était encore intitulé employé de laboratoire type C, ce qui pouvait prèter à confusion.
Lors de mon premier entretien avec l'ANPE, on m'a demandé si je lavais la vaisselle, alors que je travaillais avec des thésards dans différents instituts et laboratoire de recherche de suisse.
Finalement l'éducation nationale m'a proposé ( sans diplôme) une équivalence de niveau 4, soit un niveau français bien plus bas après examen de mon dossier.
Heureusement, après une année de recyclage math à la catho d'Anger, j'ai pu intégrer un BTS chimie par la suite .
Le plus paradoxal était que la bac algérien était reconnu, alors que le niveau était désespérant faible, tout au moins, mon binôme en première année de BTS, qui ne savait pas résoudre une équation du second degré et paniquait lors des TP de physique avec les câbles rouge et noir (+ et-) ... mais il ne passa pas en seconde année...
I think the government should make an effort to make it possible to participate in international exchange even without a university degree. At the moment, almost nothing is possible without a university.
Ich glaube, die Regierung sollte sich darum bemühen, dass man auch ohne Hochschulabschluss am internationalen Austausch teilnehmen kann. Im Moment ist ohne Hochschule fast nichts möglich.
The solution is to establish an international organization named (Academic and Professional Education Certificates Organization) and to link with UNESCO World Organization (UNESCO).
to be recognized internationally.
This is just the solution.
الحل هو في إنشاء منظمة دولية باسم (منظمة شهادات التعليم الأكاديمي و التعليم المهني )وان ترتبط بمنظمة اليونسكو العالمية .
لكي يعترف بها دوليا .
هذا هو الحل فقط.
A proposal that is unequivocal and worthy of study, but don't you think that different education, qualification and evaluation systems among the countries of the world may hamper its achievement? Currently, there is mutual recognition of diplomas and certificates in many fields between EU member countries, which are a close regional group. It may not be as easy in other countries and regions of the world.
مقترح لا باس به ويستحق الدراسة ولكن ألا ترى أن اختلاف منظومات التعليم والتأهيل والتقييم بين بلدان العالم قد يُعيق إنجازه؟ حاليا، هناك اعتراف مُتبادل بالدبلومات والشهادات في العديد من المجالات بين البلدان الأعضاء في الاتحاد الأوروبي وهي مجموعة إقليمية متقاربة لكن الأمر قد لا يتسم بنفس السهولة في بلدان ومناطق أخرى من العالم.
We humans still live in an era of ignorance with respect and appreciation for a sexual son! Much remains to be united and understand that we have to learn from a single global scientific system built on an integrated scientific basis. And for this reason, we are slow to advance rapidly in science! They are superior in destruction.
نحن البشر مازلنا نعيش في عصر الجاهلية مع احترامي وتقديري لبني جنسي! ولا زال أمامنا الكثير لكي نتوحد ونفهم پأن علينا أن نتعلم من منظومة علمية عالمية واحدة مبنية على أساس علمي متكامل. و لهذا السبب، نحن بطيئون في التقدم بسرعة في العلم! ومتفوقون في الدمار.
Well I sent all documents with official signatures done by Spanish consulate, translated to German by an official lawyer… and answer was : well … your level is higher than this level in Swiss education but we can’t recognize it. Thanks for your time, we can’t help you and of course you paid for nothing.
Surprise because we are a lot of European in this country and this is a kind of “limbo”.
I don't know if there are reciprocal arrangements. For example, if the UK accepts Swiss qualifications, do the Swiss accept UK ones? When I first came here, they didn't. As the Swiss did not accept my UK diploma, they advised me to study it again. The only course was in German. So, I switched careers and studied an international diploma (in case I decided to leave), plus a Swiss one as they did not recognize the international one. Now they do, but it took 11 years. Probably due to an EU agreement.
It is never that other countries do not recognize a vocational training, but rather a money issue.
In most countries low qualified people or technical specialists generally paid less have professional degrees. A swiss will nto accept a low qualified salary in a European country where he or she competes with someone willing to live on 1000 a month.
This comes from a lawyer specilized in human resources and IP. I prepared contracts and agreemetns for a lot of european coompanies and none hire Swiss because the Swiss people will not accept that level of pay.
Fully agreed !
Out medical department moved the lower qualified jobs to Germany. All the Swiss staff members were offered positions there and even free apartments for a year. Not one of them took the new jobs.
On the other hand, I can tell you now, as I am retired: An International Governmental Organization gave me a top job with my American University MBA, which was actually not properly accredited. Just keep trying, folks, I say ...
Honestly I have found it to be the exact opposite. Most countries I have experience with look very favourably upon Swiss qualifications.
My own medical degree (MBBS) earned at a internationally recognised university, and two postgraduate degrees including a Master degree from the University of Sydney, Australia, are not recognised in Switzerland. Despite four years of clinical work as a doctor within the Australian healthcare system, I am still unable to get my qualifications recognised to work as a doctor in Switzerland.
It’s so sad. I have the same problem with my teaching qualification which isn’t recognised, even though I have more training and experience than some of my old colleagues who got recognised. My degree is from the UK so not like I trained in a bad place or anything. Makes me so sad, they really need to open up the rules and assess cases individually.
My nephew was supposed to be transferred to the New York office of the international company he was working for in Switzerland. His work permit was refused due to the fact that his Swiss apprenticeship education was not recognized.
Thank you for your comment. Do you think a Bachelor Professional might have helped in your nephew’s case?
Yes, I definitely think so.
An MSc in Healthcare Management (1997) awarded by a British university (MBA equivalent), and recognized around the world, is not recognized in Switzerland by CRUS on the grounds that it is not a vocational qualification.
In my case in th opposite way. Switzerland doesn’t recognize my vocational training from Spain. But in other European countries is not an issue
This is very interesting to hear about your experience in Switzerland. How did you resolve the issue?
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