Is it necessary to raise the retirement age for women, or are there other ways to secure pensions?
In response to an ageing population, many countries have been gradually raising the age of retirement. Reforms have also been introduced to align the age of retirement for women with that for men in countries where women have retired earlier.
Switzerland is no exception. In the upcoming votes on September 25, Swiss citizens will decide whether to raise the retirement age for women from 64 to 65.
Are such reforms necessary to safeguard future pension funding? What are other options? Tell us what you think.
From the article Women’s retirement age to be voted on again
You have women defenseless in Switzerland by and large
У Вас женщины беззащитны по большому счету в Швейцарии
We are faced with a tricky situation with only two options: one is to continue to argue endlessly while ignoring the ticking time bomb, and the other is a less-than-ideal solution. I would choose the latter.
We are all imperfect mortals, so our society can never be perfect as heaven, although we should try to make it a little better and a little better.
我们面对一个棘手的局面，只有两个选项：一个是继续无休止的争辩，而无视正在滴答作响的定时炸弹；另一个是不甚理想的解决方案。我会选择后者。
我们都是不完美的凡人，因此我们的社会绝不可能完美如天堂，尽管我们应该尽量使它好一点，再好一点。
Maybe this time we can do it in a cost of a men? Women takes financial risk for taking care of home, raising babies etc. While men never takes such risks, if he has a good job getting a family is not risking your place, but it is not the same for women. We are not perfect but stop asking women to pay every single time for wrongs of society which men created.
Thanks! I actually agree with you in general.
However, to solve the issue of unfairness between men and women, the current AHV must be radically reformed. It requires firstly good concepts and debates, and then revision of the laws through one or more referendums.
I think this will be the right way to go.
Retirement should be assessed on the type of job/profession .
As a Scot and British ,British life is certainly harder than Europe for State Pension Age I for one have to wait ten years until I am 68 before I collect my pension .
So I am astounded the Swiss are having a debate whether Women should work to 65 .Such is the extortionate cost of living crisis persons here are requiring to work on into their seventies .
If you want women to work until 65, then there should also be many more opportunities that those who are looking for a job at 50ig also be more integrated. Not already think for the pay too much for the AHV. One gets only refusals. And how is it with the job distribution? Those who have an office job or now even home office, certainly never have the physical discomfort, as those in the supermarket and so on. Because there are heavy boxes there too . A box of eggs is 30 kilos, a trolley with UHT milk is 120 kg and that's just in sales. Food.Usw. Hardware store even worse. I speak from 35 year experience...
Wenn ihr wollt das Frauen auch bis 65 arbeiten sollen,dann sollte es aber auch viel mehr möglichkeiten geben , dass diejenigen die mit 50ig noch einen Job suchen auch mehr integriert werden. Nicht schon denken für die bezahlen zu viel für die AHV. Man bekommt ja nur absagen. Und wie ist es mit der Job verteilung? Diejenigen die einen Büro Job od . jetzt sogar Homeoffice, haben sicherlich auch nie die körperlichen Beschwerden, wie die im Supermarkt und so weiter. Denn auch da gibt es schwere Kisten . Eine Kiste mit Eiern ist 30 Kilo, ein Rollwagen mit UHT Milch beträgt 120 kg und das nur im Verkauf. Lebensmittel.Usw. Baumarkt noch schlimmer. Ich speche aus 35 Jahr Erfahrung..
I don't understand your point. Everybody does the job they are fitted for, no one makes you work anywhere. There are jobs at which workers go on pensions earlier, like flight attendances and proffesional sportsmen. If you believe shop workers should also be consideret in a heavily health detoriation job, thats a separate problem.
The lack of job opportunities is a problem including sexual discrimination being too scared to hire married women for 100% on a serious role. I have being asked about my methods of contraception too many times during an interview.
I get your point but my point will be if a male and a female have different retirement age then it is discrimination. I accept it is complicated but what you are suggesting is that women be allowed to retire earlier because they don't earn the same as men and my argument about that is that gender pay gap is never proven until I see the hourly rate and if you are paid less than your male equivalent then that is discrimination too.... so you could be working to change that and not keep hitting men on the head.. as most of us are not in power to enforce or bring about these ideas anyway... and what about all those female Politicians.. what are they actually doing?
All the politicians/lobbyists/authorities are trying to do is shift money from Box A into Box B rather than look at the really problem and that is people can only work for so long.
I hardly think it is fair that a man that has worked in a mine all his life and is gutted from breathing in horrible air just so WE can all have a wonderful life should then have to retired later than a female who has worked at a Reception desk all her life earning 'maybe' the same money... See the problem!!?? Already I'm discriminating by 'signalling' that one profession/person is worth more than the other and this continues on and on in society...yet I don't believe in all this equality because it makes us all the same...
I've certainly earned more than some women doing 'much the same job' but when those women came to me, supposedly doing the same job' and asked me continually 'how do I do this'... I wasn't impressed.. and the reverse I'm sure happened.. so it gets more complicated.. because two people can start out doing the same job, male and female, and maybe the female is more talented and why shouldn't she get more money if she does it better than the male counter part and of course your argument is that she doesn't get more.. well.. females need to go to their boss and not us men that 'didn't make the payment instructions to pay people differently' OR go to the politicians ...
I really get tired of the same circular arguments which tend to treat ALL men like horror creatures that are only there to 'push women down'.. but as I've said elsewhere, my female boss paid a female in my office 'less'... had nothing to do with me as a male...
I was writing a nice long comment but swissinfo website decided not to work when press post.
So here is the short version.
It is not a personal attack, it is a debate, if you don't like people talking to you in a passionate manner, maybe don't answer them?
Gender does not matter, I saw many men being incompetent with their job.
Why should I ask women politicians exclusively? I can ask any politician, you really trying to segregate us here.
If the solution for equality inevitably causes more harm than brings justice, is it a real solution?
I get a vibe you deem women useless, we did not choose our jobs historically, so we developed in what was allowed. In some countries wen still can't work in construction for example. So lack of women in hard labor jobs is a historically problem which is slowly leveling up.
If coal miners have problem with their pay, it is a proffesion problem not a gender problem.
I am done, I truly don't think men are horrible, but I deem your views on this question as childish and close minded.
I never understood why women could not vote till the late 70s, why women have to still assume the financial risks for family care, and same with pensions age. Let’s end gender pay gap first and after we talk about the rest. It is in the interest of both genders that women can be equally valued and that can make good money too, because in the end, as we all know by experience, a country cannot progress without half of its population. It is very simple.
So true.
Very much agree that it would be irrational for Swiss women to support the AVS harmonisation proposal. A lifelong pay gap of 11% is already negative for women. Proposing to finance AVS through age “harmonisation” would take even more out of women to give to men (who get 30% higher AVS on average already). It’s unacceptable.
Veronica are you are right, but you know that is never a one day solution, it has to be taking proper check on
At face value and in the name of “equality”, yes, retirement age should be the same . BUT, I believe we first need to achieve equality in other areas and behave “en solidaire”.
How about we start with equal pay. We currently have an 18% pay gap! Let’s think about the knock on effect of that. This automatically means less pension. If you happened to be a median to low earning household with children under a certain age (cost of crèche and the famous Wednesday dilemma) it probably means that you are struggling to pay for childcare. So, in dual earner homes, one person would probably need to reduce their professional activity so as to take care of their child/children. As it’s the the woman that earns less already, it would make sense to reduce her working time = even less income. As of 2021, 70% of working mothers are working at 80%. Now let’s add the “family allowance” you get per child from the government . This goes to the parent that earns the most. Basically, at all points women are screwed just because.
Wasn’t there recently (in the last few years) a vote to either increase the number of crèches or increase subsidies for crèches? At the time, the vote was a “no” b/c of financial implications. Where was the so called solidarity then?!
No - first equal pay, the we can talk about retirement age.
Hello and thank you for your comment. For your information, the Federal Statistical Office has just published new data on the income and pension gaps between men and women. We talked about it this week [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzerland-ranks-among-worst-european-states-for-gender-income-gap/47884444?utm_campaign=teaser-in-querylist&utm_source=swissinfoch&utm_medium=display&utm_content=o]on swissinfo.ch[/url]. It is interesting to note that the differences in pensions mainly concern the 2nd pillar of the occupational pension scheme, due to the high number of women - and mothers in particular - who work part-time. You can also find the government press release [url=https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-90256.html]here[/url].
Bonjour et merci de votre commentaire. Pour information, l'Office fédéral de la statistique vient de publier de nouvelles données concernant les écarts de revenus et de rente entre hommes et femmes. Nous en avons parlé cette semaine [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzerland-ranks-among-worst-european-states-for-gender-income-gap/47884444?utm_campaign=teaser-in-querylist&utm_source=swissinfoch&utm_medium=display&utm_content=o]sur swissinfo.ch[/url]. Il est intéressant de constater que les écarts de rente concernent surtout le 2e pilier de la prévoyance professionnelle, en raison du nombre élevé de femmes - et de mères notamment - qui occupent un emploi à temps partiel. Vous pouvez également retrouver le communiqué du gouvernement [url=https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-90256.html]ici[/url].
As women live longer than men, should their retirement age not be later too?
I have made other comments about the question:
Is it necessary to raise the retirement age for women, or are there other ways to secure pensions?
I think this is a double question and tricky actually and I don't actually like it, now that I've thought about it somewhat and made comments and read comments and some replies to my own comments.
1. I don't think the way to 'secure pensions' should be reliant on the retirement age of females;
2. I think that males and females should have the same retirement age, regardless of earnings or situations;
3. If the big executives of some major companies in Switzerland and executives of Banks can make huge bonuses and have the means to 'make money' I cannot understand why these executives are not assisting the Swiss Government to secure good pensions for Swiss Citizens and I would suggest that they are not community minded in doing so. During the pandemic it was suggested that if you do not wear a mask etc., that you were considered to be not 'solidarisch' and I would suggest that some of the economists in Switzerland are 'not being solidarisch' and therefore this whole idea of increasing the age of females to 'secure' pensions is 'unsolidarisch' and not necessary given that Switzerland is a very rich land.
Hello and thank you for your comments. This is indeed a complex issue, on which it is difficult to form an opinion. We are trying to present the views of all parties as best we can and to put it in a broader context, that of the retirement of many "baby boomers" and the inexorable aging of our societies. You can find some of our contributions in [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/why-switzerland-is-struggling-to-guarantee-pensions-for-the-next-generation/45810324]the highlight[/url] that we have dedicated to this topic as well as in [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/votations-f%C3%A9d%C3%A9rales-du-25-septembre-2022/47819160]our complete dossier[/url] dedicated to the September 25th vote.
Bonjour et merci de vos différents commentaires. Il s'agit en effet d'une question complexe, sur laquelle il est difficile de se forger une opinion toute faite. Nous essayons de présenter au mieux les opinions de toutes les parties et de l'inscrire dans un contexte plus large, celui du départ à la retraite de nombreux "baby-boomers" et du vieillissement inexorable de nos sociétés. Vous pouvez retrouver quelques-unes de nos contributions dans [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/why-switzerland-is-struggling-to-guarantee-pensions-for-the-next-generation/45810324]le point fort[/url] que nous avons consacré à ce sujet ainsi que dans [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/votations-f%C3%A9d%C3%A9rales-du-25-septembre-2022/47819160]notre dossier complet[/url] consacré aux votations du 25 septembre.
unfortunately, you miss my point about Discrimination.
And you fix discrimination in a way that you do not create even more discrimination right?
I don't think you can have your cake and eat it to, quite frankly.
Men and women should have the same retirement age otherwise it is Discrimination!
If you have a problem with salaries/hourly rates and I've suggested this before, I would be contacting all the female politicians in Switzerland and asking them "why are you letting this happen?" rather than attacking me who are currently employed doing all the hard jobs that keep society going...
I suspect you are upset and angry, but you need to take it out on the people running this Democratic Country rather than individuals without such powers.... and as I've already said myself.. I worked in an office in my homeland where a female boss allowed some females to be paid less for the same work because they belonged to a Union. That is not fair! But read my words please: a female Boss.. A female allowed other females to be paid less than men and women because she didn't like Unions. The female boss didn't fight for her female staff.. So who was the problem here???
I don't believe I've heard the word 'inchaked'. Could you let me know what it means please.
Also, I find it interesting that you use the word 'shit' which I consider 'slag'.
I am also searching daily to see women out there digging holes, moving furniture, working outside on the hot days on building sites?? It seems there are different rules for different women.. and a lot of women don't seem to be showing up in the 'tougher' jobs in society so that they can 'earn he same as men'!!
thank you for your comment. Do you earn he same as your husband or less?
The tax issues is nothing to do with whether women get paid more or less than men. I find it hard to think that Female Politicians allow this 'injustice' to continue is it is really 'exists'!! Why would they allow it to continue? I suggest you consult with female politicians rather than bashing and Pillorying men in public.
Is it absolutely necessary to call people 'ignorant'...
I find it unverschämt and am amazed that the moderators allow your comment(s) to be publish using such language.
pillory
1 : a device formerly used for publicly punishing offenders consisting of a wooden frame with holes in which the head and hands can be locked
2 : a means for exposing one to public scorn or ridicule
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pillorying
Any of the jobs that men and women participate in is surrounded by hard work for men. Therefore, women's claim that they do the same work is not true. Even sellers in fashion houses are the ones who return the safe to their place while saleswomen are happy to arrange their content only.
في أي عمل من الأعمال التي يشارك بها الرجال والنساء تُسند الأعمال الشاقة إلى الرجل، لذلك فان ادعاء المرأة بأنها تؤدي العمل ذاته غير صحيح، فحتى الباعة في بيوت الموضة، فإن الرجل هو من يعيد الخزانة الى مكانها، بينما تتلهى البائعات في ترتيب محتواها فقط.
In most of the sectors of work women do the same job as men. They are good doctors, engeniers, scientists and office workers. There are very few sectors where women presence is less visible because of the physical work, but dont forget that women were not allowed to work in such sectors so rebound in number of women working in such sectors is slow naturally. Any men can choose a safe office work with right education, so not all work men do is physically harder than women's. And I do see women in constructions sector more and more. I think it is about education rather than physical strength which draws women to other sectors where they feel more accepted. I can't imagine level of criticism a women can relieve in an all men environment company which also don't help integration.
@MAKSSIEM....men work longer hours as well. This whole "equality" thing is impossible. You can't make people "equal" by creating laws. Men and women are already "equal" by nature in different ways. This allows the two-genders to complement each other. Society i. e. the media is trying to make men and women compete with each other and society cannot function properly that way.
Men and women have different desires and needs and those entities are fulfilled when men and women join together bringing their various needs and desires together to prosper. It always turns out bad for women because they are pushing women into mens' spaces. It's like pushing more men to be nannies. Men simply aren't attracted to that field the way women are and there is nothing wrong with that.
I work longer hours than my husband. Family frame which you suggest is outdated. There should be no devision of work by gender which you suggest. There are men who are happy to be nannies. Women can be CEO and other profitable and demanding jobs notl sit at home and nanny children unless she wants to.
Please tell us who takes care of the children during the absence of the father and mother - if they are in the custody of a woman's nanny who has left her children alone to take care of another woman's children - we should remember that the nanny is also a woman without rights.
رجاءً أخبرونا من يعتني بالأولاد أثناء غياب الوالد والوالدة - إن كانوا في عُهدة مربية امرأة تركت أولادها بمُفردهم لتعتني بأولاد امرأة اخرى - علينا التذكير بأن المربية أيضا امرأة بلا حقوق * فهل من يُطالب بحقوقها؟
Not every nanny has their own child and they have rights and work contracts etc. If you hire a nanny without work contract that is a mistake and disrespect on your side. Men can be a nanny as well. When both gender participate in the same sector it is only beneficial for the development of this sector as it bring new views and eases any stigma attached to that career.
Also there are institutions who can accommodate the child without personal nanny. There boarding schools where diverse personnel takes care of a child and kindergartens.
Currently, women get the pension 5 years longer than men because they live longer. After the unification of the retirement age, it would still be 3 years more.
Life expectancy at 65 (2020):
Men : 19.3 years
Women : 22.2 years
Zur Zeit bekommen Frauen die Rente 5 Jahre länger als Männer, weil sie länger leben. Nach der Vereinheitlichung des Rentenalters wären es immer noch 3 Jahre mehr.
Lebenserwartung mit 65 (2020):
Männer : 19,3 Jahre
Frauen : 22,2 Jahre
Hello, thank you for your comment. It is true that women have a longer life expectancy than men and therefore receive their pensions for longer on average. But on the other hand, they receive significantly lower retirement pensions. According to a study by the Federal Social Insurance Office, the average pension for women (including all three pillars) is 37% lower than for men. Read all about it [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/la-retraite-des-femmes-est-%C3%A0-nouveau-l-enjeu-d-une-votation-populaire/47725146?utm_campaign=teaser-in-querylist&utm_content=o&utm_medium=display&utm_source=swissinfoch]here[/url].
Bonjour, merci de votre commentaire. Il est vrai que les femmes ont une espérance de vie plus longue que les hommes et perçoivent donc en moyenne leur rente plus longtemps. Mais à l'inverse, elles touchent des rentes de retraite significativement plus faibles. D'après une étude de l'Office fédéral des assurances sociales, la rente vieillesse moyenne des femmes (comptabilisant les trois piliers) est inférieure de 37% à celle des hommes. Tous les détails sont à lire [url=https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/la-retraite-des-femmes-est-%C3%A0-nouveau-l-enjeu-d-une-votation-populaire/47725146?utm_campaign=teaser-in-querylist&utm_content=o&utm_medium=display&utm_source=swissinfoch]ici[/url].
Then housework and child care must be also paid as a salary because your proposal will end in poverty for many women due to gender discrimination caused by men. We need something better.
Right. Therefore women retirement age should be 68 ...
This is a very excellent thing to raise the retirement age to 65. It is an excellent age. Honestly, there is no specific age at which a person retires unless he becomes unable to work.
هذا شيء ممتاز جدا لرفع سن التقاعد إلى ٦٥ فهو سن ممتاز بصراحه فلا يوجد سن معين يتقاعد فيه الإنسان الا اذا أصبح غير قادر على العمل.
Swiss women are the ones who demand equality with men in all fields. They were surprised to object to that in this case.
المرأة السويسرية هي التي تطالب بمساواتها مع الرجل في كل المجالات. فعجبا اعتراضها على ذلك في هذه الحالة.
this reform is a way of undermining 'human beings'. In my country it is now 67 and we didn't even get to vote on the change!!
In my mind, the whole tax system in most countries needs to be re-addressed and not just because of pensions. I've learned a lot from Professor Richard Werner about economics.
How are married punished? The Swiss had a chance to change all this a few years ago but the change was tied to 'same sex marriage' and what 'marriage is'.. which has changed now.. and can you say more about 'being protected'.... !!!
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